Starchildren - catch them all - sidebar discussion

Discussion in 'BMP - Public' started by Kensuimo, Feb 14, 2017.

  1. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    An event that occured in Orson Scott Card's book Xenocide seemed especially starchildy to me:

    "Finally, a breakthrough is made. Knowing the Ansible communication network allows instantaneous transfer of information, and through knowledge of how the Hive Queen gives sentience to child queens, Jane, Grego, and Olhado discover the "Outside". The Outside is a spacetime plane where aiúas initially exist. (Aiúa is the term given to the pattern defining any specific structure of the universe, whether a particular atom, a star, or a sentient consciousness.) Formic hive queens are called from Outside after birth, giving awareness to the new body. Jane is able to contain within her vast computing power the pattern defining the billions of atoms and overall structure comprising a simple "starship" (little more than a room), with passengers included, and take them Outside. By bringing them Outside, where relative location is nonexistent, then back "Inside" at a different spot in the physical universe, instantaneous travel has been achieved, finally matching the instantaneous communication of the Ansibles and Formics. They quickly arrange to take Ender, Ela, and Miro to Outside. While Ela is Outside, she is able to create the recolada virus, which is a safe replacement of the descolada, and a cure to the godspoken genetic defect. Miro envisions his body as it was before he was crippled by paralysis, and upon arrival in the Outside, his consciousness is contained within a new, restored body. Ender discovers, however, the surreal unwitting creation of a new "Valentine" and new "Peter Wiggin" from his subconscious, who embody idealized forms of his altruistic and power-hungry sides."


    Effectively making yourself into your own hive. Solipsism? Check.

    Edit: Auia is an excellent parallel/overlap for my conception of starchild notion of shape. I'll go into this more in the TM hall.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
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  2. Ophiuchus

    Ophiuchus Active Member Typed

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    Thanks for posting that; I find it both enlightening and slightly unsettling. I've only read the first Ender book in the series, but looking back at it through the lens of Edenism, there's an argument to be made that all of those novels are basically an overarching SC propaganda opus (In other words, Card trying to alter the environment to favor his respective reproductive strategy). The only exception would seem to be the second book, which takes a rather drastic departure from the military Sci-Fi thrill ride of the first.

    From Wikipedia's synopsis:

    "At this point the Starways Congress moves into harsh penal action; Miro and Ouanda are to be sent off-world to be tried for their crimes and the entire colony disbanded, the piggies left to their primitive ways. Ender delivers his eulogy of Marco to the stunned colony, revealing the history of infidelity, sacrifice and redemption to all. Miro attempts to cross the electric fence to hide with the piggies, but suffers neurological damage that partly paralyses him. Finally, Ender reveals to Ouanda, the church officials and Lovinha the truth of the rituals and the Escolada virus; every animal and plant species of Lusitania exists in a pair, bonded genetically by the virus such that one births the other. Vivisected piggies naturally grow into trees, and the deaths of Pipo and Libo were the product of misunderstanding. Between these events, the Catholic institution relents and agrees to deactivate the fence, that a productive meeting may be established with the piggies to present to Congress. The colony severs its ansible connection and declares rebellion, and Ender heads with Ouanda and the piggy named Human among others into the woods.

    Ender meets with the enigmatic wives of the piggies, and learns of their species' complex life cycle; the trees continue to communicate with their ambulatory peers, and infertile-male "brother" trees will disassemble themselves on request to provide whole wooden tools and lumber. Only those that undertake the painful death ritual become "father" trees, which are used to fertilise small infant females who die in childbirth, all overseen by the infertile adult wives. Ender curtails Ouanda's desire to genetically alter this harsh reproductive cycle against the piggy's will, while also showing the piggies the un-necessity and error of a large-scale war they were planning with human technology. Together, Ender, Human and the wives draft a treaty for co-habitation of the planet. Human insists that the treaty must be signed with the sacrificial "planting" of a participant, an ancient honour custom that the best and brightest males may enter the "Third Life" as father trees. When Pipo and Libo came to their agreements with the piggies, they didn't understand and failed to venture planting; the piggies mistook this as an invitation to plant Pipo and Libo instead. Ender makes it very clear that planting will only kill a human, and that it's extremely distressing for humans to perform the rite. Nonetheless, in a show of solidarity Ender agrees to perform the first and only human planting sacrifice; he vivisects Human with the help of tools provided by Rooter's tree self and witnesses the sapling of his third life grow."



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    ...What?


    He went from Starship Troopers with kids to hippie Ewoks on acid in the span of one book. I'm guessing the primitive, warlike Piggies are standing in for humanity here, who of course must be shown the wisdom and perfection of the infinite collective by the benevolent SC hivemind.
     
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  3. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    I don't think Card consciously draws distinctions between starkids and nonstarkids. Insofar as starkids want to propagate their beliefs and achieve consensus, exclusion for practically any reason other than closemindedness is counterproductive.

    Frankly, Speaker, Xeno, and Children are cosiderably more preachy (value weaving) than Game. Why is up to speculation- I find it important to note that Game was conceived of as a novella- Card may have drawn out its length and inserted depth with authorial intent not necessarily orthogonal to but certainly not parallel with the original thrust.

    George R.R. Martin's writings are characteristically starchild, at least if you buy into the theories of one youtuber Preston Jacobs. Notions of hivemind, tolerance of and in fact necessity for cooperation with concretizations of the anthropological concept of "the other", and the conceptualization of history as a collective "song" that is remembered- it's a veritable drinking game checklist of starkid traits.

    As far as the Speaker trilogy matches the above themes- obviously tolerance and cooperation are highlighted, sometimes (as GRRM is wont to do) by showing the horrific consequences of neglecting such principles. Ender's eulogy for Marco plays to the starchild notion of hivemind- of permeable consciousness. Of particular remark is the fashion whereby Ender constructs this perspective- Marco is, if memory holds, dead prior to Ender's arrival. Thus the eulogy is constructed from second hand accounts- a sense of a man constructed entirely from the memories of his family and friends. Ding ding ding.

    The magnitude of suffering necessary for the proper piggy life cycle is, I think, meant to create a very strong sense of foreignness- getting along with your neighbors is easy if they're functionally identical to you. Only through showing bizarre comparisons of custom can Card properly, at least to his view, demonstrate the intensity and toughness necessary for coexistance. So hippy, yes, but with some steel in there.

    Lastly, Game contained a similar amount of "don't kill each other" as the latter books- the whole twist hinges on the notion that xenocide was unwillingly committed, and Ender, being basically Jesus, feels shitty for a choice he didn't make. This obviously shapes his goals throughout the series.

    Edit: to extrapolate slightly (and unfortunately I forget if this was explicitly stated or just my own conjecture), he feels shitty partially because he thinks he should have realized what was going on- the hive queen is in telepathic communication with him more or less throughout Battle School.

    Re: the series as propaganda: value weaving is breathing to starchildren: every conversation is a policy decision waiting to happen. What I would recommend looking for is the duration of a given message in a starchild's work: obviously themes of egalitarianism and tolerance will pervade the work (as much as hierarchy and competition will pervade Mx works), but given Koanic's conception of starchildren as constantly rewriting self and other, belief, identity, etc., I would be surprised to observe common themes of any specificity persist beyond perhaps a decade in a given writer's works.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
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  4. Ophiuchus

    Ophiuchus Active Member Typed

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    Very enlightening post concerning the more comprehensive details of the Starchild writeprint, thanks again.

    Of all the Edenic types' psychologies, I find the SC's the most difficult to intuitively grasp. True to their name, they seem to be the most thoroughly alien type in that it appears they (it?) would dismiss the very idea of having a "type" to begin with. The concepts of permeable consciousness and unceasing rewriting/psychological ephemerality are particularly intriguing. To me, "consciousness" seems impermeable by definition.

    The George R.R. Martin comparison is also very interesting. The overlong saga of the Song of Ice and Fire books' writing would definitely lend credence to Koanic's theory regarding SC psychological impermanence/rewriting, that's for sure. The books gradually, somewhat painfully shifted from tightly-constructed political pulse-pounders set in a fictitious medieval Europe to a meandering slice-of-life stream-of-consciousness binge set in a fictitious Near East. I think there's more than likely something to that.

    The interpretation of ASoIaF as cautionary literature regarding hierarchical civilization is also intriguing and, I think, enlightening. Most critics/fans have been content to chalk Martin up as a particularly gifted Tarantinian violence-obsessed genre fanboy at worst and a cynical, low-fantasy heir to Tolkein et al at best; I doubt many would attribute the themes of his work to his temporal lobes exercising their need for psychic synthesis--and his obvious love of medieval history/culture/warfare plus the lurid juxtapositions of eroticism and violence seem to suggest otherwise--but I'm definitely open to the possibility.
     
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  5. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    There is no departure. The thoroughgoing perversion of that plotline was a leftist SC's assault upon hierarchical Catholic morality, such as prohibitions on homosexuality, abortion and assisted suicide.

    Masculinity is also deconstructed, with Ender-style participatory immersive tolerance and disruption of conservative mores upheld as pinnacle of complete humanity. But the disruption is a holistic, organic rewriting and uniting, not a hierarchical act of violence. Indeed, even the piggy's warfare is merely a form of psychic rewriting.
     
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  6. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    It pretty much is, at least on this plane. Hivemind is an approximation (like hierarchy).

    Note that GRRM is not strictly speaking starchild: his temps are too high, even for the correlated trait I have tenatively called fauxporal (see Matt Forney. I may also have this trait). His mass is into what has tentatively been dubbed spidermelon turf (Vejiortan coined the term but may not necessarily use it in this context. Aeoli, to my knowledge, does). The senior Assad had this too. It apparently combines parietal will to power and starchild insider manipulation and is thus more dangerous than regular temps. I speculate that it is analogous for temporals to the parietal backswept- the progression frontcone -> backcone -> backswept increases ambition. In a similar fashion, occ -> faux -> backswept increases ambition (see
    First attempt to describe Koanic’s Mohawk theory | https://aeolipera.wordpress.com/2016/09/15/first-attempt-to-describe-koanics-mohawk-theory/). So backswept seems to be a maximum for ambition regardless of angle of approach, and "spidermelon" lobes (which, in regretfully yet another diversion, I must note that I consider to be the most intuitive trait correlate for the term "latpar"- all apologies to Vejiortan). Koanic has claimed, to my recollection, to be able to fit temporals into the mohawk theory but to my knowledge has not expounded upon such ideas.

    Anyway, the notion of the power behind the throne being concentrated into the hands of a few (an idea that certainly appeals to occ preference for singularity, as discourse between Vejiortan [who is in fact fauxc] and Koanic [who, being backswept, advocated for the viewpoint of multiple interests competing and cooperating as the situation renders profitable ] has demonstrated). GRRM's massive tangled plotlines (which, as Preston has almost certainly demonstrated, utilize unreliable narrators and misleading consensus to lull the reader into a veritable fantasy within a fantasy, often failing to grasp fundamental power relations between the families due to sheer propagandistic power) certainly match the indicated belief structure of a spidermelon, perhaps alleviating possible questions pertaining to his status as such on the grounds of a lack of concrete (political) influence in his life. To my knowledge the hardest stance he has taken in terms of IRL politicking has been against the Sad Puppies faction of the scifi writing community.

    Simply understanding that starchildren fall on both sides of the political spectrum should suffice to dissuade you that there is a massive conspiracy. All starchildren value weave, but what values they weave vary.

    @Koanic Missed the assisted suicide symbolism. Thanks for providing it.

    And re: piggy warfare: yes. Aeoli wrote "
    Notably, they also seem to lack any tendency to aggression (this is another reason it takes them a while to make any money). Insults and setbacks seem to slide off them like water off a duck’s back. This lack of malice or aggression is mediated by their complete inability to give a straightforward answer to any question." Fighting, to a starchild, is failure, because the goal is consensus/unity. Melons are perfectly willing to impose their will through violence, because that's often the best way to control how people act. Sometimes propaganda is, but at the end of the day melons care about how people act. Starchildren care about how people think. So we're sort of come full circle: hivemind is approximated by ironing out discrepancies of opinion through (often impassioned) discourse (the definition of value weaving). But since starchildren's god is chaos, they'll rewrite just to rewrite, and therefore the writhing mess propagates (I say that with fondness). So when Koanic speaks of Ender's conveyed notions of the perfection process of human morality, it seems extremely tongue-in-cheek to me: as if it were a flavor of the month type thing (Card's ideas, that is, not Koanic's description). Not wrong, per se, but devoid of lasting power. No bones.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  7. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    > Ender's conveyed notions of the perfection process of human morality

    Yeah, religion is the process of being Starchild, which can only be replicated by Starchildren.

    Not too different from my attitude that everyone should behave as deepsocket MTs, to be honest.

    Chauvinism is ingrained.
     
  8. Ophiuchus

    Ophiuchus Active Member Typed

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    I've actually never heard the term "Spider Melon" before, but from what I can glean from your description, I'm guessing that the type's reproductive strategy focuses on weaving a tangled inter-social/political "web" in order to ensnare its enemies, hence the name?

    Also, looking at Forney's head through a phrenological lens for the first time was striking. Those fauxporals look like horns.

    Separated at birth?
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    I was under the impression that fauxcipital was the apex of ambition in that it represented pure ego and loyalty to one's self above anything else. Also, if you don't mind my asking, what lobe is speculated to actually constitute the faux? In my amateur opinion, it seems to be an excessively backswept parietal. Nietzsche's wild-eyed quote, "I am no man, I am dynamite!" seems like a thought that could not be generated by a properly functioning, diamagnetically-oriented occipital lobe.

    Thank you, I feel that the clarification between values and methodology to be particularly important. It's not technically a conspiracy in that there is no consciously deliberate behind-the-scenes collusion taking place, but the effect is the same in that x's default mode is trying to rewrite and impose its essence upon y. It's a function whose domain is all real numbers but whose range is simply "1". In various shades, of course, but still uniform nonetheless.

    It seems to me that understanding how a person thinks is a prerequisite to understanding how a person acts. Likewise, understanding how a person acts necessarily entails understanding how that person thinks. Therefore, to care about how a person acts is to care about how said person thinks by necessity and vice-versa. I guess what I'm saying is that ultimately, both types seem to care about both thought and action and both are ultimately concerned with unconsciously trying to alter the environment to favor their respective reproductive strategies. Boneflour's quote in your sig remains astutely prescient.

    Whether or not it's violent seems irrelevant given that the end condition is always the same. That's why its so foreign to me. If the M-back ultimately worships hierarchical order, and the SC ultimately worships chaos, I suppose there's an argument to be made that the SCs are more in tune with "nature" given the whole second law of thermodynamics thing. But on the other hand, we're beings whose organic bodies are elaborately constructed in accordance with, and exist within a system of, immutably strict physical laws. Either way, I'll never let them take me back to their mothership alive!



     
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  9. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    [​IMG]

    Please explain. Your first statement...is that meant to encapsulate a starchild perspective?

    @Chu Spidermelons are not well understood (even the name is contended). They are rarer than starchildren, who are the rarest type (I'm implying here that spidermelons are a subtype thereof).

    Fauxcippital as pure ego...maybe in theory, but practically speaking you'll see Fxs cooperate and exhibit altruistic behavior to a much higher degree than a given Mx. Oxytocin levels may not be Tx high, but they're still elevated (my speculation).

    Re: thoughts vs actions. Mxs have a strong "filter" whereby their par is always trying to calculate the most efficient action for their given goal. They use probabilistic thinking, which should be contrasted with thal perfectionism. Deepsock MTs being the exception, Mxs don't give a flying fuck about the nitty gritty. Txs live for it. So because convincing someone of the validity of a given ideological framework is usually quite time intensive, you see TMs and SSs (SCs) doing it readily but Mxs look at such behavior and think "sperg".
     
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  10. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    > Your first statement...is that meant to encapsulate a starchild perspective?

    Yes
     
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  11. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    Hmm. So then (rhetorically) does value weaving have any actual value to non-starchildren? Are the effects it induces, if impermanent, still of social value?

    Aeoli framed it in terms of a maintained heightened state of oxytocin:

    Music, oxytocin, starchildren | https://aeolipera.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/music-oxytocin-starchildren/

    Also:

    "This vibrational awareness of sorts also means a starchild on the offensive can deliver some extremely powerful social put-downs, because they are custom-made for the individual and the social scene."

    This is in agreement with the notion that starchildren are extremely fond of improvisation (which is, succintly, the inclination to delay wave function collapse).
     
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  12. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    @Thalmoses On a 1000 yard scale, it sort of makes sense that Card would choose Brazilian/Portuguese culture wherethrough to rewrite Catholic doctrine, given the degree of colonialism of Spain/Portugal in South America. Effectively he's insisting on two way rewriting.

    Hubert Burda, German art historian/publisher.

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    "Burda has the discipline of Germany but he also has certain qualities that Powerful Germany may not have respected in the past. He is stirring the pot, bringing people together, searching for new ideas, making things happen. When he meets talented people he brings them into his network, combines them into his mix. This is his discipline. This is his power. In addition to new people, he attracts new ideas, brings fruitful chaos to a world of certainty, shakes things up, and makes a mess out of the old order, the old way of thinking. Science (and the technology that follows) does not have to be beautiful or pure. Things do not need to be symmetrical or deducible from first principles. That esthetic, a great motivating force in science since Plato, is over. The sciences of complexity, which are the hallmark of the third culture, can be very messy. Out of chaos comes creativity. Hubert Burda is Germany's agent of change."

    Alright guys, who's been leaking Edenic concepts? Seriously, too perfect.

    HUBERT BURDA: GERMANY'S AGENT OF CHANGE | Edge.org | https://www.edge.org/conversation/hubert_burda-hubert-burda-germanys-agent-of-change
     
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  13. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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  14. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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  15. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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  16. Ophiuchus

    Ophiuchus Active Member Typed

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    Muse lead singer/guitarist/frontman Matt Bellamy. He's got a noticeable case of narrowspace and hooknose, but his appearance is otherwise so harmless and his behavior so goofy that you get much more of a "goober" than a "snake" vibe.

    Very wide, tall frontal. Can't tell if his temps are actually bulging or it's just narrowspace.

    [​IMG]


    He's got a bit of socket depth, but I can't really make out for sure whether his caudal/posterior mass is occ or faux.

    [​IMG]

    Interesting fact: his dad, George Bellamy, was also the lead singer and guitarist in a rock band--the Tornadoes, who were famous for their worldwide number one hit song "Telstar", which gives me a very stereotypical/humorous "Starchild" vibe:



    Could this be the Ur-Starchild anthem, like how Meditations is the Ur-Owl Melon text?
     
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  17. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    Looks a lot like Christian Bale (socket depth). Narrow dental arch seems pretty characteristic of starchildren (even hybrids). So (T/S)T recchin.


    [​IMG]
     
  18. Aeoli Pera

    Aeoli Pera Admin Staff Member

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    The last four examples are standard English faces.
     
  19. Ophiuchus

    Ophiuchus Active Member Typed

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    So... you're saying that England is a country inhabited by unsettling, eerie little goblin-folk with strangely misshapen crania and narrowly-spaced eyes, who exist in a state orthogonal to the truth?

    Tell me something I don't know, fam


    Apologies to any SCs who may be reading, u know i love u
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
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  20. Roland

    Roland New Member

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    My first post: I think (T/S)S widespace, deepsoc

     
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