I is Mensa now

Discussion in 'TT - Public' started by Polymath, Aug 31, 2016.

  1. Polymath

    Polymath Member Typed

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  2. glosoli

    glosoli Well-Known Member Typed

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    I attempted the first 6 questions whilst eating dinner, then random guessed the next 14 as I got bored and my head started to hurt.
    So, 140, not a bad result (and it tells me I got 7 wrong, that's awesome guessing skills, considering 5 possible answer options), see you at the next Mensa meeting!
     
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  3. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    Mensa does not accept unproctored internet IQ tests.
     
  4. Polymath

    Polymath Member Typed

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    I'm aware of that. The thread title was tongue-in-cheek.
     
  5. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    Yes, I just found the output that test gives misleading.
     
  6. Aeoli Pera

    Aeoli Pera Admin Staff Member

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    Random guessing produced scores of 95, 110, and 90. So the scoring is bunk.

    That aside, the questions are fun.
     
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  7. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    130. Couldn't answer the last five (and had several earlier ones wrong).
     
  8. Lorien

    Lorien Active Member Typed

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    I too got bored after a while and guessed randomly for the last 10 questions. Of those I got 9 wrong. I'm not quite so skilled at guessing as Glosli.

    The definition of random is alternative #5, btw.

    ----

    For serious, I have been wanting to join mensa for the last year or two. But taking their test would require me to travel out of town. Can't be bothered.
     
  9. Polymath

    Polymath Member Typed

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    I am reviving this thread to report my score on one of Paul Cooijmans' IQ tests. A few days ago, I ordered the "Cooijmans Intelligence Test 3a". I worked on it for several hours over two days. This morning I received my score report with an IQ of 153. This score was higher than expected, given my previous performance on IQ tests and the fact that my real-life functioning level does not seem to be at quite that high of a percentile. Paul assures me that the test was graded with utmost objectivity and that my taking a long time on the test has nothing to do with my intelligence level, since test-taking speed is not correlated with g (although, as I have explained in the past, I am skeptical about the concept of g in general).

    Has anyone else taken any of his tests? Do you think that they are psychometrically sound and that Cooijmans knows what he's talking about? Regardless of how much meaning the score carries, I found the test to be very fun and enjoyable.
     
  10. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    Was it a purely nonverbal test? I'd expect you to score high on that.

    I'm skeptical of any untimed test, because Cyborganize exists to brute force problems I'm too stupid or tired to handle intuitively. But this is not my area of expertise.

    Regardless, it is obvious whatever the statisticians say that intelligence is not a fungible currency denominated in g, equally applicable by the individual across all domains.

    Perhaps it is more like the "general" quality of the brain, the trend isolated from the noise - that component which expresses the difference between a retard and a polymath!

    It is like comparing football teams based purely on physical performance stats such as 100 yard dash and deadlift. It will tell you the difference between high school and pro, but not who's going to win the superbowl. But it is undeniably real!
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  11. Polymath

    Polymath Member Typed

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    The test has 39 problems all in the same form. The problems consist of two columns of five items each. The items are selected such that they follow a contrasting rule for the right and left column, and you have to determine what the rule is. An example would be like this:

    1 | 6
    5 | 2
    3 | 20
    9 | 8
    15 | 4

    So the answer would be odd numbers on the left, even numbers on the right. There are 13 problems each of verbal (words), numerical (numbers) and spatial (symbols created with a matrix of dots). I actually scored highest on the verbal problems and lowest on the spatial ones, although my score was high for all three types.

    I agree with your skepticism. I think that someone who can get the same score as I can but in much less time should be considered "smarter", at least in a certain sense. Paul insists that this is not the case, that testing speed does not correlate with g, and that the only thing that matters is how many questions you can get right. At any rate, someone who can do the test very quickly would be expected to function better than a slower person at certain intellectual activities, even if that trait is not related to g.

    He also told me that scores on his tests have a weak correlation with childhood IQ scores because different people have different curves of mental development during childhood, and the IQ tests which are given to children only indicate performance relative to age-peers who might be at a higher or lower state of development.
     
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  12. Vejiortan

    Vejiortan Geheimrat Baron

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    How does he "determine" the percentile ? Obviously, he hasnt tested enough people to calibrate it, so he probably uses some sort of mathematical model - what is measured then is like "people with IQ 140 on the standard test scored on average 75 points on this test, with sigma so and so and then 100 points on this test correlates with IQ 150".
    The problem with this is obviously, that people who care about taking this untimed test are more likely to be thallish - so they are the ones whose results on the normal tests don't show their aptitudes. Speed is a melon thing.

    However, it seems like you scored better on this test than people who scored higher on normal tests did.
    So this shows that you're much better at solving hard problems slowly than solving less hard problems at normal speed.

    The "g" is valid - but only in a limited way. Intercorrelation of different test results for fast, meaningless (or at least not very meaningfull) and easy tests. Obviously, this correlates with reaction time.
    g measures efficiency, but not effectiveness.

    It seems like iq is a first approximation that keeps many people from looking at real-life abilities in real-life domains.
     
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  13. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    Yes, I think g is a matter of looking for your keys under the streetlight. That's where the statistical light is, with our current very crude methods. But it's not where the world is, to continue the metaphor.

    However, it is ideologically important to expose people who lie about what can be clearly seen under the spotlight. We can see that the street is concrete and has a curb. Not grassy and smooth.

    OK. When I say "verbal", I mean SAT, GMAT, and GRE style reading passages as the apex of the art. Analogies and single-world manipulations strike me as a much lower abstraction level. They may all be collectively called "verbal", but I very much doubt they are the same thing. Still, this question is susceptible to investigation; there is surely some correlation between the two; the question is how strong.

    Certainly the reading passages are trainable; maybe word lists are too. Probably passages are avoided to prevent cultural and educational bias.

    I doubt IQ tests are untrainable, since e.g. I vastly improved my performance on Raven's Matrices after grasping the "style" of the problem class, and learned how to switch out of verbal reasoning mode and into visuo-spatial, which I almost never use.

    This would appear to be my own personal "Flynn Effect" moment.
     
  14. Apercus

    Apercus Benefactor of Humanity Baron

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  15. Lorien

    Lorien Active Member Typed

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    I recently took the Mensa exam, and scored 108
     
  16. Polymath

    Polymath Member Typed

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    Can you describe what kind of test it was? Do you have some specific learning disability which might affected your ability to take the test? The fact that someone who seems intelligent to me could score so low serves to further my doubt that IQ tests (or at least some types of IQ tests) are useful for making judgements on an individual basis.

    I have heard that Mensa often uses the Cattell test or something similar to it. Apparently, it is mostly a test of mental speed and Cooijmans doesn't consider it to be a good test.
     
  17. Lorien

    Lorien Active Member Typed

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    Raven's progressive matrices, 20 minute time limit, don't remember what the particular model was named. Felt in top shape. I had time to answer 33/45 questions, with 100% accuracy, so speed was more of a limiting factor than the problem complexity.

    No known learning disability or mental defect.

    I actually like the result. Gives me an excuse to avoid responsibility and in general act like an idiot.
     
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  18. Polymath

    Polymath Member Typed

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    20 minutes to answer 45 questions? 26 seconds per problem. I have a feeling I wouldn't get a great score either. If Mensa really cared about creating an environment which spurs interesting discussions, they would try to recruit people based on quality of thought, insight, etc. but such a test is heavily biased toward mental quickness and nothing else. Even a person capable of getting all those questions right wouldn't necessarily be intelligent in the "mental caliber" sense described be Aeoli, because that test probably included no items which were truly difficult (any problem which could be solved by anyone in 20 minutes, let alone 26 seconds, isn't hard enough to discriminate in the high ranges of mental caliber).

    One thing I've noticed is that you often take longer than most people to respond to a post or question, but your responses are of high quality. I think this is, to a large extent, a personality trait. I can imagine you doing the same on that test, only moving on to the next question when you've really convinced yourself that you've got it right. You value quality over quantity and thoroughness over speed. I am the same way, but I think you are even more so.

    Mensa is first and foremost a business, and as a business, their goal is to recruit people quickly and efficiently. Quality member vetting is a secondary concern. This is why many people join Mensa only to find that a lot of the members don't seem all that bright.
     
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  19. Aeoli Pera

    Aeoli Pera Admin Staff Member

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    And as you've mentioned, Cooijmans doesn't value mental quickness in the least, which is a gross omission on his part. Hence the importance of treating speed and caliber separately.

    I believe it's also necessary to distinguish caliber from an attitude of rigor (which is my label for the personality feature you sense in Lorien and yourself). Supposedly, a STEM education instills a sense of rigor, and I imagine this was at least somewhat true in the past. It appears to be absent in physics and engineering education now, but present in higher mathematics. I suspect it's present in computer science by virtue of all the programming: compilers do not grade on a curve or offer partial credit.
     
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  20. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    Still, speed is a component of intelligence, and Lorien is probably on the low end for this forum.

    I have known people who were not fast, but wise. Perhaps they are more in tune with the tempo of reality than the torrent of inner thought.

    The things I can do in my Cyborganize exomind change qualitatively which major shifts in speed.

    Likewise, the things one can do in one's endomind change qualitatively with major shifts in speed.
     

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