Discussion of the emotive "like" system

Discussion in 'GTD - Public' started by Aeoli Pera, Nov 19, 2016.

  1. Vejiortan

    Vejiortan Geheimrat Baron

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    What "optimistic" and "pessimistic" means isn't clear cross-type. Likewise, "creative" and "old, outdated" will spark many question marks. "immoral" "boring" "dumb" are needlessly negative, will spark conflicts. Besides, they're not helpful - if it's boring, why even bother rating it ? If it's dumb, then just disagree with it (the case that you agree with the argument despite its dumbness is rare and doesn't need an emotive). "immoral" is superfluous, since each types and sub-type has his own idea what is or is not immoral.
     
  2. Vejiortan

    Vejiortan Geheimrat Baron

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    Whether you consider an argument to be "dumb" or not isn't relevant - it is relevant whether you agree or disagree or request further information. The reasons for disagreeing are secondary. "bad formatting" isn't relevant.
     
  3. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    Presumably the decreer of dumbness does so only with a mentality of corrrection (unless they're playing some guru "figure my comments out yourself" bullshit). So "dumb" can formally be defined as "rebuttal/counterproposal to be delivered in near future".

    My interpretation of Boneflour's singularly greatest capacity as a person:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    I am not deepsock, so my statement may be a priori distasteful/acategorical, but communication need not be 100% efficient- though at times it certainly should be, and in that respect the tools to do so should exist- but emoticons are fundamentally a shorthand. Truly nuanced discussion requires words (which often don't do the job!), and lots of them. Unless we're trying to go Egyptian hieroglyphics here- but then everyone would have to be par occ dualback to 1) have the symbol manipulation necessary for it and 2) have the inclination to develop a redundant/unneeded language.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
    • Nobilid Nobilid x 1
  5. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    @Vejiortan Agree that "Creative" is redundant with "Thank" - deleted.

    I'd like to keep the "Old, Outdated, Deprecated" flag to easily mark content as deprecated, without needing to otherwise edit it. It's just efficient. Not much of an issue now, but in a few years, it definitely will be. It's a neutral, useful rating.

    Clearly everyone has different conceptions of the function the ratings should perform, much less how.

    My take: Removing the button doesn't remove the opinion. It just necessitates a post rather than a button. Posts are more disruptive than buttons, and a post that could be replaced by a button, should be.

    To my mind, a non-specific downvote is worse than a specific criticism. Rather than subtracting, I'd like to add one: "Too Woo". Imagine how many posts that would save.

    The point of the immoral rating is to highlight cross-type moral differences. It's easy to shrug off a downvote that boils down to such an irreconcilable difference.

    Boring doesn't mean right or wrong, good or bad, just not interested. Useful feedback.

    Dumb is harsh, but Dunning-Kruger is harsher. Nobody is so smart he doesn't need to be repeatedly told he's stupid about xyz.

    "Bad Spelling etc" means fix it or at least try harder next time, because it's annoying. Legit complaint.

    Every rating works both ways, because everyone can see who sent it. I find that more interesting than the rating itself.

    Still need an answer re "Noble".

    Re Optimistic | Pessimistic
    Again, I think it would save a lot of posts where the reader simply wants to tweak that valence up or down, rather than using a hard binary agree/disagree. It's easier to shrug off than an agree/disagree, because people are hardwired for different internal opt/pessismism and communication protocols thereof. Hell, it varies by mood.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  6. Vejiortan

    Vejiortan Geheimrat Baron

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    "Too woo" is good. It demarcates one's ah boundaries. Maybe the rainbow button is good for this.
    Most people will find most posts to be "boring". By not rating or commenting on a post you implicitly rate it as boring.
    Dumb is highly problematic.
    I think that the only negative button we should have is "disagree". Everything else gets too personal. You'll see that people who get such negative votes will in fact lose motivation to post more. The "thank" button served the purpose of motivating (effort-)posters.
    The point is, if you want negative feedback you can post on a normalfag site somewhere in this big internet and you'll get more then you asked for.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    Quibbling, but not necessarily. Pieces of argument and counterargument can congeal over the course of pages of discussion. Maybe that individual post wouldn't generate a theory alone, but it may well have served as a keystone.

    Neutral =! Boring.

    Maybe add a chin-stroking emote.
     
  8. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    Rainbow icon for "Too woo" sounds good. It requires some minor technical trouble so I'll batch it with the final version.

    Most will reserve the button for outstanding examples of boredom.

    Since one can now easily ignore by forum, thread or person, there's little reason to be bored.

    Regarding negative feedback, there are three options:

    1. No negative feedback
    2. One generic negative feedback
    3. Multiple specific negative feedbacks

    I'm open to argument and votes, but lean towards 3.

    Moreover, barons/governors can enforce their own rating norms. So the "chilling effect" is no different than negative posting. If anything, the tempting convenience of the buttons makes it all the easier to weed out the ill-suited.
     
  9. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    I rate Glosoli's rating of my post as boring as hilarious.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  10. Vejiortan

    Vejiortan Geheimrat Baron

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    The "boring" button has been used maybe a dozen times in this thread alone.
    Of course, there is a difference between active boredom and simple neutrality (this case was ignored in my previous comment).
    However, whether someone is really terrible bored or just doesn't care about the topic isn't relevant - in both cases, he's not going to engage. Non-interaction doesn't need a button. The buttons are shorthand for disambiguating different kinds of interactions.

    Regarding negativity:
    The "disagree" button is optimal for this, since there's no personalization. If someone really cares about making a personal negative statement, he should actually post it. Negative personal buttons lower the threshold for personalizing (instead of waiting to cool down somewhat) considerably.
    "Dumb" : If I assume that the poster is honest, then all mistakes he makes are the result of some kind of dumbness - lack of understanding, lack of mental discipline, lack of knowledge in a partical realm, lack of understanding regarding the boundaries of one's knowledge. Moral/emotional dumbness etc. Therefore, we don't need "dumb".
     
  11. Boneflour

    Boneflour Moderator SuperMod

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    Figured I was going to be the first person to spam downvote to prove a point. Too slow! I rate glosoli's rating of my posts as boring as Sanic the Hedgehog:

    [​IMG]

    All my "creative" ratings are now memory holed. This is 1984 I tells ya!

    My reaction to Kensuimo's interpretation of my single greatest capacity as a person:

    [​IMG]

    My reaction to the increasing chain of metareactions:

    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  12. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    You win. Thresholds should be lowered for positive but not negative personalization. Deleted.

    What about the spelling one? I guess it's ticky nuisance bullshit too. If people care to get upvotes, they'll tryhard.

    I guess we care about tribe formation, not conflict. So there's no need for the friction generated by downvotes unless we're going to derive some automatic benefit from them, e.g. ranking posts for display.
     
  13. Kensuimo

    Kensuimo Well-Known Member Typed

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    Boneflour, it means that you are sexy and you are aware that you are sexy.
     
  14. Vejiortan

    Vejiortan Geheimrat Baron

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    Is it possible to design new icons ?
    I could make a question mark for "What?" and change the "Nobilid" one too.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Aeoli Pera

    Aeoli Pera Admin Staff Member

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    i like the expanded system. sad face.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Too Woo Too Woo x 1
  16. Boneflour

    Boneflour Moderator SuperMod

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    The first question to ask with any new system is, "How would a complete dickhole use this to pervert my entire reason for adding this system?" AKA "stress testing". No place is too obscure, there is always someone, sooner or later.

    The old new system looked to be cheap to troll, and (relatively) expensive to manage.

    The new new system looks a bit more stable. Still like Vejiortan's 7 Emoji. 7 is a good number.

    Think I'm getting the MT mindset a little better now. "I GUESS it's about tribe formation and not blood-eagling your opponents. I suppose we can scale back the downvotes." THIS. IS. ALTRUISM! /300kick

    I knew I liked this Kensuimo guy for some reason.

    My reaction to Kensuimo's explanation of his post in response to my reaction to Kensuimo's interpretation of my single greatest capacity as a person:



    I was planning on filing a Declaration Of Intent To Commit Silliness, but hopefully this still qualifies as discussion on the new system. Shadilay!
     
    • Nobilid Nobilid x 1
  17. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    > "How would a complete dickhole use this to pervert my entire reason for adding this system?"

    He would be removed from wherever he abused it. There is no unowned territory on this site.

    MT is not about domination, but law.
     
  18. Vejiortan

    Vejiortan Geheimrat Baron

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    It's about both. If T-front is the master, it's about achieving order through domination. If M-back is the master, it's about achieving domination by lawful means.
     
  19. Vejiortan

    Vejiortan Geheimrat Baron

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    So now that "rude" is gone and "Too woo" is added, the question is: What about "nobilid" "optimist" "pessimist" "outdated" ?
    I get "outdated", but actually this should be used mostly for some of one's own older posts. Hm, being able to designate someone else's posts as outdated but not being able to do the same with one's own posts is far from optimal.
    I still don't get what "optimistic" and "pessimistic" should mean.
    Instead of those two we might want a button "half agree, half disagree".
    And "nobilid" - sounds great by how to use it ?
     
  20. Thalmoses

    Thalmoses Founder Administrator

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    An MT talks about domination but secretly wants lawful honorable equality.

    An MM talks about brotherhood but secretly wants beneficient domination.

    > Hm, being able to designate someone else's posts as outdated but not being able to do the same with one's own posts is far from optimal.

    Yeah. We could restrict this rating to a certain privileged class. Like the permissions group that can already globally edit tags. Done.

    > I still don't get what "optimistic" and "pessimistic" should mean.
    > Instead of those two we might want a button "half agree, half disagree".

    Nah. Your suggestion is more ambiguous. "Optimistic" means "I regard this post as more optimistic than my realistic assessment." Or, "Thanks for the good cheer, bro." "Pessimistic" is the reverse.

    > And "nobilid" - sounds great by how to use it ?

    Thanks means thanks. Friendly means affection. Nobilid means "you are a superior phenotype sir". Think of them as increasingly complimentary.
     

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